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Post by ROCKY on Jun 4, 2013 21:24:29 GMT
I always wondered if Please Please Me would have flopped would Brian have poured more money and attention in say maybe his Gerry and the Pacemakers act? Whose records were selling just a shade under the Beatles releases at the time. Of course this is an opionated answer because we'll never know.
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Post by mrmustard on Jun 4, 2013 22:21:43 GMT
I always wondered if Please Please Me would have flopped would Brian have poured more money and attention in say maybe his Gerry and the Pacemakers act? Whose records were selling just a shade under the Beatles releases at the time. Of course this is an opionated answer because we'll never know. Great question Rocky. It's my understanding, and I may well be wrong, that Brian was only really interested in Gerry. Whereas I think he saw The Beatles as a group of equals. Well, ok he probably thought a bit more of John perhaps. I think he would have persevered if Please Please Me had been a flop. The question is, how long would George Martin have held onto them?
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Post by veejayrick on Jun 5, 2013 1:27:25 GMT
Another what if........ What if Brian Epstein & George Martin had insisted that "Thank You Girl" & "From Me To You" had been included on the album and "Love Me Do" and "P.S. I Love You" been excluded? Would it have made for an even BETTER debut? Or was their thinking geared to both 45 and Lp sales dominance?
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rdnzl
I'll Be On My Way
Pastor Of Muppets
Posts: 251
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Post by rdnzl on Jun 5, 2013 13:43:27 GMT
"Thank You Girl" and "From Me To You" hadn't been recorded in time to be on PPM. In my opinion, George Martin and/or EMI decided to capitalize on the popularity of "Please Please Me" (the song), which is why they decided to call their first album "Please Please Me".
George Martin and/or EMI wanted this first LP to be as inexpensive to produce as possible, which is why they recorded it in a one day session, augmenting it with the four songs already released on their first two Parlophone singles.
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Post by The Sun King on Jun 7, 2013 5:30:37 GMT
Great reviews regarding PPM. Even though some were that long it was like reading War & Peace Informative ,passionate & honest opinions from alll contributors. PPM the best debut album ever? Well it's got to be up there. The remarkable thing about it is they were able to pay homage to the musicians who inspired them,whilst at the same time produce an album that would inspire future musicians & people alike. The album with its beautiful production captured the Beatles at there Rock N Roll best. The band was slick & know one could touch them. If I was marking the album I'd give it 9/10. Marking it down because of the covers. Even though the covers in my opinion are superior to the originals in every way shape & form. PPM gets played in our house on average 3 or 4 times a week. My wife and I absolutely love it. I appreciate all the Beatles early stuff now more than ever. I would have to give the accolade of best debut album to "in the Court of the crimson King". Pete Townsend described it as an "uncanny masterpiece". He was right. Firstly the spellbounding album cover by Barry Godber,truly haunting & unforgettable. Then the influence it would have not only on future musicians but on the musicians around at the time. Jon Anderson was amazed by it.He famously said Yes need to up their game to get to that level. Which they did with the Yes album ,but that's another story. Kurt Cobain cited Crimson as a major influence on his career. Later stating that Crimsons "Red" album being one of the best he'd ever heard. Nevermind (pardon the pun) the album containing great tracks & even better playing with fabulous lyrics. The album has it all. How good is Michael Giles playing by the way. It's a shame that people who despise prog rock never give it a chance. Some say they hate the album & yet they have never played it. This infuriates me. In the Court is a classic album & needs no genre to hide behind. 4 forum members agree with me,must be good. Crimson hit the ground running with their debut. The album they will always be remembered for.
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ranger
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 153
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Post by ranger on Jun 7, 2013 8:11:07 GMT
This idea of influence is interesting.
I won't use prog as an example, as it might get people fractious, so I'll use The Smiths as my example.
We're often told how influential they are, and how many people they influenced.....one problem, all the people they influenced are dire! See also Roxy Music, The Stooges, The Velvet Underground, Bowie; all the people they influenced are dire too.
If Woody Guthrie had ONLY influenced Dylan, he would be more influential than The Smiths. If Chuck Berry had ONLY influenced The Stones, he would be more influential than The Smiths. If Buddy Holly had ONLY influenced The Beatles, he would be more influential than The Smiths.
I'd want to know WHO an act influenced long before how many they influenced and, most crucially of all, WHEN.
'Please Please Me' influenced every beat group, a term that didn't exist before its release, in the world, and opened up the LP format as a legitimate way of shifting popular groups like The Rolling Stones, The Who, The Pretty Things etc. Before its release, pop/rock 'n' roll LPs, in Britain at least, were as rare as hen's teeth.
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Post by mrmustard on Jun 7, 2013 8:31:05 GMT
Well put The Sun King. Before people disregard an album they should actually bother to listen to it instead of making an assumption it's crap. The level of influence you cite for In The Court Of The Crimson King is one of the reasons I too hold it in high regard and just slightly above Please Please Me as the best debut.
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Post by mrmustard on Jun 7, 2013 9:09:43 GMT
This idea of influence is interesting. I won't use prog as an example, as it might get people fractious, so I'll use The Smiths as my example. We're often told how influential they are, and how many people they influenced.....one problem, all the people they influenced are dire! See also Roxy Music, The Stooges, The Velvet Underground, Bowie; all the people they influenced are dire too. If Woody Guthrie had ONLY influenced Dylan, he would be more influential than The Smiths. If Chuck Berry had ONLY influenced The Stones, he would be more influential than The Smiths. If Buddy Holly had ONLY influenced The Beatles, he would be more influential than The Smiths. I'd want to know WHO an act influenced long before how many they influenced and, most crucially of all, WHEN. 'Please Please Me' influenced every beat group, a term that didn't exist before its release, in the world, and opened up the LP format as a legitimate way of shifting popular groups like The Rolling Stones, The Who, The Pretty Things etc. Before its release, pop/rock 'n' roll LPs, in Britain at least, were as rare as hen's teeth. You make a good point Ranger. However you also have to accept that there were very influential albums in the late 60's and 70's that influenced many credible future artists. Based on past comments I guess you won't though!
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ranger
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 153
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Post by ranger on Jun 7, 2013 16:49:09 GMT
Depends on your definition of credible, I suppose and, you're right, I define different eras as having different levels of credibility. Winning the League in 2013 (no competition) has little value compared to winning the League in 1956 (huge competition).
Consider that Carl Perkins was a relatively minor influence (but nevertheless an influence) on The Beatles compared to, say, Elvis, Buddy, Little Richard and Eddie Cochran. The group recorded several of Carl's songs, and many more on the BBC, and George idolised him, but he is far less influential on The Beatles than, say, The Sex Pistols are to The Clash.
So who's the more influential, Carl Perkins or The Sex Pistols?
For me, the answer is Carl Perkins by a country mile. 100% influence on The Clash has less worth than 1% influence on The Beatles.
Of course, other opinions are available!
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Post by Amadeus on Jun 7, 2013 21:09:35 GMT
I just thought I'd bring up the fact, before we move on to 'With The Beatles' that rdnzl's PPM review wins for the most comments because of his inflammatory heading 'The Best Debut Album Ever'. I wonder who'll cause dissension for the next album reviews.
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rdnzl
I'll Be On My Way
Pastor Of Muppets
Posts: 251
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Post by rdnzl on Jun 7, 2013 23:51:34 GMT
I enjoyed reading all of the reviews submitted. I love reading reviews, and often waste time reading them on Amazon. It's so easy to stay stuck in our own brains. Reading reviews is a good reminder that we aren't all wired the same. What might sound like a masterpiece to me may sound like audio feces to someone else. And I appreciate that we're not an army of like-minded clones.
And in the case of "In The Court Of The Crimson King", an observation by King Crimson, I must say that it's the best prog debut album ever!!! I would have liked the first Yes album to have won that title, but that album is weak in comparison to ITCOTCK. The first ELP album is the 2nd best prog debut album for me...or should it be the first Gentle Giant album? But this is the stuff for a different thread. I imagine one probably exists already...
My favorite review was "What Is This World Coming To?" by Amadeus. It was nicely written from the point of view of an imaginary reviewer who didn't like the album or band very much at all!
And I am threatening to write a review called "With The Beatles: The Best 2nd Album Ever".
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Post by Amadeus on Jun 8, 2013 1:33:47 GMT
And I am threatening to write a review called "With The Beatles: The Best 2nd Album Ever". Now I CAN agree with that!
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Post by The Sun King on Jun 8, 2013 4:28:57 GMT
Speaking of best debut album. What about John Lennon/plastic ono band. His first official solo album.Don't mention two virgins. Then All things must pass,another debut. Two inspirational albums.
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Post by mrmustard on Jun 8, 2013 12:19:43 GMT
Speaking of best debut album. What about John Lennon/plastic ono band. His first official solo album.Don't mention two virgins. Then All things must pass,another debut. Two inspirational albums. Technically you are right with John Lennon Plastic Ono Band. Lennons previous efforts were collaborations with Yoko. George Harrison had already released Wonderwall Music and Electronic Sounds while he was still a Beatle with All Things Must Pass being his third solo release.
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Post by Amadeus on Jun 8, 2013 12:28:18 GMT
Don't mention two virgins. Then All things must pass,another debut. Two inspirational albums. Well, you're in luck. Two Virgins, Life With The Lions and The Wedding Album are by John Lennon/Yoko Ono. As are Some Time In NYC and Double Fantasy. Now if you're looking for John Lennon/POB debut, that's Live Peace In Toronto. And All Things Must Pass is George's third album after Wonderwall and the brilliant Electronic Sound. Technically, those albums you mentioned are their first post-Beatles albums, but not their debut. If you want to be technical about it. I must continue my duties (doodies) as resident know-it-all you see. Really, John Lennon's debut album with just his name on it is Mind Games. A bit disappointing really.
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Post by The Sun King on Jun 8, 2013 12:48:18 GMT
I stand corrected says the man in the orthopedic shoes.
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Post by Mr Kite on Jun 8, 2013 18:48:50 GMT
I would like to throw another into the ring .
The Kick Inside - Kate Bush .
A masterpiece , she began writing the songs from the album at 13 years old , the subject matter are just too much beyond her age at the time . The Kick Inside is about insest between a sister and brother and she finds herself pregnant and the song is the sucicide note . "By the time you read this " Absoulutly beautiful and heartbraking. Strange Phenomena. About Premonition , Deja Vu and periods . A Man With A Child In His Eyes . Touchy subject , and the title says it all , but it has to be up there with one the greatest songs to be put on record . Kate maybe not to everyones taste but she was way ahead of her time when Female singer song writers were far and few between in the 70`s .
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Post by Amadeus on Jun 8, 2013 19:56:55 GMT
Hounds Of Love and The Ninth Wave. Does it get any better than that. But we're talking about debuts here so just ignore me.
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Post by The Sun King on Jun 9, 2013 9:34:28 GMT
Good call MrKite.The Man with a child in his eyes is an awesome track.
Getting back To John,s solo albums. Yes technically Mind Games might be the one with only his name on. I think the point being missed is that the name of John,s debut solo album is "John Lennon/plastic Ono band" according to Wiki anyway ( who are they) Plastic Ono band is just part of the name of the album. That's my Interpretation anyway.It will always be his debut solo album in my eyes. If people wish to hold Live peace in Toronto ,Two Virgins or Mind Games as his official solo release, that's up to them.
All things must pass will always be George,s debut also in my eyes. It produced his debut solo single My Sweet Lord. Wonderwall Music was a soundtrack For a film of the same name with contributions from the Remo four & Eric Clapton. Technically Electronic Sound is his first Studio album. But the was used to basically show off the new Moog Synthesizer. An album of little significance ( maybe great significance regarding the Moog) The album never charted in the England.
All things must pass is his first proper album let be honest here. Unless people want to throw it into the mix for the best 3rd album ever.
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Post by mrmustard on Jun 9, 2013 10:45:43 GMT
Good call MrKite.The Man with a child in his eyes is an awesome track. Getting back To John,s solo albums. Yes technically Mind Games might be the one with only his name on. I think the point being missed is that the name of John,s debut solo album is "John Lennon/plastic Ono band" according to Wiki anyway ( who are they) Plastic Ono band is just part of the name of the album. That's my Interpretation anyway.It will always be his debut solo album in my eyes. If people wish to hold Live peace in Toronto ,Two Virgins or Mind Games as his official solo release, that's up to them. All things must pass will always be George,s debut also in my eyes. It produced his debut solo single My Sweet Lord. Wonderwall Music was a soundtrack For a film of the same name with contributions from the Remo four & Eric Clapton. Technically Electronic Sound is his first Studio album. But the was used to basically show off the new Moog Synthesizer. An album of little significance ( maybe great significance regarding the Moog) The album never charted in the England. All things must pass is his first proper album let be honest here. Unless people want to throw it into the mix for the best 3rd album ever. Of course. Realistically these two albums will and should be recognised as John and George's proper first solo albums. i.e. when they were writing songs and not just experimenting with electronics and baby's heart beats etc
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