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Post by ROCKY on Jun 3, 2013 12:18:11 GMT
Believe it or not, Elvis and the Beatles didnt invent music. I never said music, but music business. Elvis started kids buying 45's and the Beatles started kids buying lps. Then some a-hole in the 90's said you don't need these and now there's only a few record stores left and only the internet if you want to buy them. For example what's the top ten groups or songs right now? In the 60's, 70's and 80's you could ask any kid and he would know.
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Post by mrmustard on Jun 3, 2013 12:22:20 GMT
I think your love for the Beatles may have you somewhat short sighted here Mr.M. Like I said, i'm not a huge GNR fan, but I recognize AFD for what it is. Influence? Good lord, the album ended hair metal and techno pop in the 80's and drove music back to the harder rock and roll that popular music was craving. GNR was to the late 80's and 90's what the Stones were to the 60's. AFD is a way more consistent album then PPM. PPM has a ton of filler on it. I really cant believe i'm arguing for Guns and Roses, but i'm even more baffled as to how your selling short what many consider the greatest debut album of all time. Given that I have already said that, in my opinion, In The Court Of The Crimson King is the best debut album I hardly think my love for The Beatles is making me short sighted. You confusing 'best' with album sales. Who exactly have Guns and Roses influenced? It's interesting to note that in Duff McKagens autobiography he said that as soon as he heard Smells Like Teen Spirit he knew Guns and Roses were essentially over. He was right. The influence of Appetite For Destruction and impact on music was negligible in comparison to Please Please Me and In The Court of the Crimson King. This is what I am talking about.
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Post by The End on Jun 3, 2013 14:23:18 GMT
I’m absolutely loving the discussions this new board has promoted so far but before we have fisticuffs after school (heehee just kidding ) I would just like to say that the best or most influential debut album of all time is still only based on opinion and, without a shadow of a doubt, personal taste is an important and often overriding factor - you only have to look at the some of the albums toted for that accolade so far – the lists reflect people’s individual tastes. To go one further, and at the risk of being battered round the head by pretty much every contributor in this thread so far, do you want to know how many of the previously mentioned albums would appear in my list of greatest debuts - just one contender for me: Nevermind. The rest, forget it. And the reason for that is purely down to my own personal taste. You are all absolutely right to hold dear to your opinions that King Crimson or Guns 'n' Roses or The Smurfs (haha sorry!) had better debuts but absolutely not for me. If it hasn't influenced me I'm not going to vote for it. Some may consider that to be a blinkered and possibly selfish approach but I like a hell of a lot of different kinds of music the vast majority of which is not particularly well known or successful but to me the albums that I like are no less important than Led Zeppelin! But those key words there: “to me”. But maybe it’s the definition of greatest debut that is the problem – for me it equates to impact and influence not musicianship and sales. I know there are literally thousands of artists who on their first album were better musicians or shifted a lot of units but when you look at impact and influence not much stacks up. I will readily put my hands up and admit it's hard for me to be objective where The Beatles are concerned but it's certainly not much of a stretch to say to say that on the basis of impact and influence Please Please Me is one of the greatest debut albums of all time - you only have to look at what it did to the UK music scene - it changed it forever. This album was a watershed - ground zero - an epoch - whatever you want to call it - surely this is beyond any argument because we can look back and see what happened as a consequence of its release. Greater albums were made and you might have a whole swathe of albums in mind that you consider were better but what other debut album has had a bigger impact on music than this one? When someone releases a debut album so good that it removes any chance of Simon Cowell ever having influence over the music scene, that's when I shall bow down and hail a greater album – hopefully not by The Smurfs! Just saying....
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Post by mrmustard on Jun 3, 2013 17:03:05 GMT
Ok Dad I'll bring me ball in now! Lol. I completely agree with you Al. It's all about opinions, anyone is entitled to their own opinion and to them it is the right opinion. The new album review section is all about opinions and we haven't all agreed on liking the same songs off Please Please Me. Where would the fun be in that! I just have an issue with a couple of albums mentioned that, for me, don't merit the accolade. It's only my opinion - and who am I?
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Post by The End on Jun 3, 2013 19:00:24 GMT
LOL! Yeah - absolutely loving it and so far this section is everything I hoped it would be - so please all do keep the opinions coming! "Of course, I don’t expect you to see eye to eye with me, but I’m sure we can agree to differ"
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Post by Mr Kite on Jun 3, 2013 19:18:35 GMT
Just being a bit picky Al . Smell Like Teen Spirit , was a track off Nevermind which was not Nirvana`s debut album .
GnR! They almost destroyed Rock music . Thank Christ for Nirvana . Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath was a damn fine debut album also and in my opinion created Metal .
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Post by The End on Jun 3, 2013 19:28:27 GMT
Just being a bit picky Al . Smell Like Teen Spirit , was a track off Nevermind which was not Nirvana`s debut album . GnR! They almost destroyed Rock music . Thank Christ for Nirvana . Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath was a damn fine debut album also and in my opinion created Metal . DOH! What a div I am LOL!
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Post by mrmustard on Jun 3, 2013 19:42:28 GMT
Just being a bit picky Al . Smell Like Teen Spirit , was a track off Nevermind which was not Nirvana`s debut album . GnR! They almost destroyed Rock music . Thank Christ for Nirvana . Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath was a damn fine debut album also and in my opinion created Metal . DOH! What a div I am LOL! I was going to pick The End up on the Nirvana issue but I'm far too polite!
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Post by Mr Kite on Jun 3, 2013 19:48:25 GMT
Well... It`s not often I can get one over Al .
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Post by The End on Jun 3, 2013 20:32:59 GMT
I have disgraced myself, I'll get me coat.... LOL!
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ranger
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 153
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Post by ranger on Jun 4, 2013 11:30:56 GMT
'WHEN'? That's the question I need answered first of all. Not how or who or where or what, but 'WHEN'. Arguing about the significance of an album from 1987 compared to the 60s is ridiculous.
So, for me, debut LPs I'd want to listen to after the 60s are as rare as Arsenal trophies.
Indeed, I'd suggest that with the first LPs by Lonnie, Elvis, Chuck, Gene, Eddie, Carl Perkins, The Crickets, Billy Fury (quite apart from all the blues guys) that there are far more debut LPs made before 'PPM' that I'd want to listen to, than after it.
I will put in a word for the debuts by The Stones, The Who, Jimi, The Pink Floyd and The Velvet Underground, however. (though for each of those acts, I actually prefer the 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd and 3rd LPs respectively!)
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Post by The End on Jun 4, 2013 12:02:01 GMT
'WHEN'? That's the question I need answered first of all. Not how or who or where or what, but 'WHEN'. Arguing about the significance of an album from 1987 compared to the 60s is ridiculous. So, for me, debut LPs I'd want to listen to after the 60s are as rare as Arsenal trophies. Indeed, I'd suggest that with the first LPs by Lonnie, Elvis, Chuck, Gene, Eddie, Carl Perkins, The Crickets, Billy Fury (quite apart from all the blues guys) that there are far more debut LPs made before 'PPM' that I'd want to listen to, than after it. I will put in a word for the debuts by The Stones, The Who, Jimi, The Pink Floyd and The Velvet Underground, however. (though for each of those acts, I actually prefer the 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd and 3rd LPs respectively!) Very good point there (ignoring the cruel Arsenal jibe! LOL!) - it does sort of tie in with the point I was trying to make (which got lost along the way as I rambled on and on!) which was that impact and influence should play a major part in determining what the greatest debut albums are, and this is due in the main, to your very valid point, which is timing and the people that did it first - trailblazers - those that did something different and as a result influenced and affected the course of music. And, for me anyway, the last album to come even close to doing anything like that was Nirvana's Nevermind.
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tkitna
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 214
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Post by tkitna on Jun 4, 2013 12:49:36 GMT
I agree PPM was a GREAT debut album, one of the absolute best of all time, but would you consider Santana's 1969 first Lp or Chicago's CTA ? (BTW, "Boys" was a Shirelles original and "Chains" was originally by The Cookies ). Yes, I would consider Chicago's Transit Authority. Awesome album from start to finish. Nice call.
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tkitna
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 214
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Post by tkitna on Jun 4, 2013 12:52:39 GMT
Believe it or not, Elvis and the Beatles didnt invent music. I never said music, but music business. Elvis started kids buying 45's and the Beatles started kids buying lps. Then some a-hole in the 90's said you don't need these and now there's only a few record stores left and only the internet if you want to buy them. For example what's the top ten groups or songs right now? In the 60's, 70's and 80's you could ask any kid and he would know. Ok, i'm on board with this.
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Post by Amadeus on Jun 4, 2013 13:02:18 GMT
First! Influential! Everyone is wrong! The most important and influential LP ever is the first LP ever. 1948. So there! Chew Beatles! And it's a 12 incher too. Hi There
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Post by The End on Jun 4, 2013 13:04:59 GMT
OK, conceded!!
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tkitna
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 214
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Post by tkitna on Jun 4, 2013 13:12:00 GMT
I think your love for the Beatles may have you somewhat short sighted here Mr.M. Like I said, i'm not a huge GNR fan, but I recognize AFD for what it is. Influence? Good lord, the album ended hair metal and techno pop in the 80's and drove music back to the harder rock and roll that popular music was craving. GNR was to the late 80's and 90's what the Stones were to the 60's. AFD is a way more consistent album then PPM. PPM has a ton of filler on it. I really cant believe i'm arguing for Guns and Roses, but i'm even more baffled as to how your selling short what many consider the greatest debut album of all time. Given that I have already said that, in my opinion, In The Court Of The Crimson King is the best debut album I hardly think my love for The Beatles is making me short sighted. You confusing 'best' with album sales. Who exactly have Guns and Roses influenced? It's interesting to note that in Duff McKagens autobiography he said that as soon as he heard Smells Like Teen Spirit he knew Guns and Roses were essentially over. He was right. The influence of Appetite For Destruction and impact on music was negligible in comparison to Please Please Me and In The Court of the Crimson King. This is what I am talking about. Nah, I dont believe i'm confusing album sales with success. I mentioned it because its pretty interesting as the album wasn't meant to be mainstream and caught on later in its inception. I believe it did so because it was just good. As to who they influenced,,,,,I have no idea. Lol. I kind of quit listening to popular music when the 90's hit. Had kids then and just got way from the whole music thing. I'm sure kids that grew up during the time could rattle them off, but I can't. Is how much influence an album or band have a deciding factor on how good an album is? Just trying to get the right criteria here. As for Nirvana, grunge is the saddest period of music ever in my opinion. Its funny that were talking about PPM and Nirvana at the same time, because i've compared Nevermind to PPM many times. I always felt that it was a three chord album that didnt showcase much skill, but had some catchy songs. I always said it was no better then PPM as a whole. Oh well. I'm a decent prog fan, but can honestly admit to never listening to King Crimson. They always seemed to out there and too weird for my tastes. Never saw the appeal and cant agree wit you to ITCOTCK's greatness, but I still think that the Petty Things 'SF Sorrow' is the greatest album ever created and that counts against any Beatle album. To each their own.
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tkitna
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 214
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Post by tkitna on Jun 4, 2013 13:20:05 GMT
On another note, I was just thinking out loud and wondered if PPM actually caused all of the influence or was it perhaps the singles that the boys had out like 'I Wanna Hold Your Hand' and 'She Loves You'? Surely those two songs were better then anything from the album (that I can think of anyways).
This is an interesting discussion and its all opinions so cheers, but Al's going to kill me when it comes to 'With The Beatles' as I dont think its a very good album as a whole and I think it may be his favorite. I dont think the Beatles really hit their stride until 'A Hard Days Night'.
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Post by The End on Jun 4, 2013 13:59:37 GMT
This is an interesting discussion and its all opinions so cheers, but Al's going to kill me when it comes to 'With The Beatles' as I dont think its a very good album as a whole and I think it may be his favorite. I dont think the Beatles really hit their stride until 'A Hard Days Night'. LOL! Oh, I thought I had swayed you slightly when we had this very conversation in another world literally years and years ago! But have to agree 100% - I am absolutely loving the many debates this has all stirred up so far.
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klang
What Goes On In Your Heart
Posts: 65
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Post by klang on Jun 4, 2013 17:18:05 GMT
One could conjure up many titles for consideration here.So many have been so important on so many different levels.PPM,however WAS the start of the worldwide league of yongsters' discovery of a pop form that could not only provide valuable entertainment properties,but was also highly liberating in terms of under-30 social relevance.Here in America,of course,the Beatles' "big bang" was Capitol's "Meet the Beatles",in particular,"I Want To Hold Your Hand",the single release of which could be charted high on a list of significant events in our history.
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