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Post by mrmustard on Sept 14, 2011 20:48:03 GMT
I thought this might be an existing thread but I can't find it.
So for forty years the story goes that Raymond Jones went into NEMS and asked Brian Epstein for a copy of My Bonnie which prompted him to go to The Cavern etc etc
Then in 2002 in the book Hello Goodbye - Alistair Taylor and The Beatles, Taylor 'reveals' for the first time in forty years that he invented Raymond Jones. Then in 2008, Spencer Leigh releases The Cavern book in which he has a direct quote from Raymond Jones explaining the original story. This quote is referenced at the back of the book saying that Raymond Jones now lives in Spain!!!
Come on, somebody is telling porkies here. It's all a massive worldwide, counterculture conspiracy clearly!!
Can anyone confirm the true story?
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alix
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 340
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Post by alix on Sept 14, 2011 23:07:02 GMT
Alistair i think says that he used the name of a regular NEMS customer in the book he did in the late 80/ early 90s called Yesterday. And i think i read somewhere that at a late 90s Penny Lane Festival Alistair declared himself to be Raymond Jones.
Perhaps they both were,
I've not read the Spencer Leigh book, did Raymond say he actually filled in an order request form? Because that's what Alistair claims to have done in the name of Raymond Jones in a bid to get Brian to order the records.
Either way the name Raymond Jones is to be saluted as we'd all be poorer spiritually (although possibly richer financially!) with out his name and the My bonnie record.
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Post by mrmustard on Sept 15, 2011 10:38:35 GMT
Here's the quote from the Spencer Leigh book
Raymond Jones "I used to go to NEMS every Saturday and I would buy records by Carl Perkins and Fats Domino because I heard The Beatles playing their songs. My sister's ex-husband, who played with Mark Peters and the Cyclones, told me that The Beatles had made a record and so I went to NEMS to get it. Brian Epstein said to me, 'who are they?' and I said, 'They are the most fantastic group you will ever hear.' No one will take away from me that it was me who spoke to Brian Epstein and then he went to the Cavern to see for himself. I didn't make them famous, Brian Epstein made them famous, but things might have been different without me."
Seems quite an elaborate story for a lie and why six years after the Alistair Taylor book Hello Goodbye? Is this story in the other Taylor book Yesterday? I haven't read that. And why say he now lives in Spain???
Either way the whole episode is daft. As Bill Harry has stated, how could Brian Epstein not have heard of The Beatles prior to the Raymond Jones incident as Brian had a column in Merseybeat right from issue one of which The Beatles were all over the front page!
I believe Bill Harry is a member of this forum. Perhaps he could shed some light on this.
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Post by The End on Sept 15, 2011 13:36:10 GMT
Sadly Bill Harry has long ceased posting - would definitely welcome his version of events!
I believe Mersey Beat was also stocked in NEMS so he would surely have seen the "Beatles Top Poll" headline!
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Post by mrmustard on Sept 15, 2011 14:59:34 GMT
I believe Mersey Beat was also stocked in NEMS so he would surely have seen the "Beatles Top Poll" headline! Exactly! Both 'official' stories are bollocks!
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alix
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 340
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Post by alix on Sept 15, 2011 23:44:13 GMT
plus the members of the group were always in and out of NEMS listening to records and not buying them.
Sadly my copy of Yesterday is 100miles from me - it's probably in the same box at my parents as the Cavern Mecca programme (i've not forgotten - i've just not managed to find it when i've been home)
Although perhaps that's it.
Raymond went in and spoke to Brian, but Brian didn't follow it up until Alistair filled in the form or Alistair filled in the form for Raymond/Brian. 20+years later Alistair remembers filling in the form but can't remember where the name came from and thinks he must have made it up - why would a random Liverpool teenager in a shop full of Liverpool teenagers stick out in the mind? And having declared it once - he'd look foolish to go 'well er no actually that guy's Raymond'
Brian wouldn't want to be seen as being too curious and knowing of a bunch of rather good looking leather clad young guys on the front of a music publication he stocked. So he needed to say 'oh who are these you're talking about...' Plus Brian could spot a hit but wasn't a a fan of pop so perhaps he never really looked at the Merseybeats he stocked......
50 years later we'll never know the truth but it's fun to speculate.....
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Post by The End on Sept 16, 2011 13:59:25 GMT
Good points there Alix.
The other thing of course is that Mersey Beat published the story of the Beatles making a record, given their popularity and the proximity of NEMS to Mathew Street, surely there would have been plenty of people enquiring about the disc?
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alix
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 340
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Post by alix on Sept 17, 2011 12:19:59 GMT
The numbers of people coming in and asking but not ordering is the reason Alistair gives for faking the order form.
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Post by mrmustard on Sept 17, 2011 12:24:18 GMT
.........but then where did Spencer Leigh get an apparant direct quote from Raymond Jones? This isn't a quote from Alistair Taylor. I can't believe Spencer Leigh would just make this up and throw in that he now lives in Spain!
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alix
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 340
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Post by alix on Sept 17, 2011 14:28:51 GMT
Raymond says he spoke to Brian, doesn't actually say if Brian agreed to order the record or who filled in the record order form....
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Post by mrmustard on Sept 17, 2011 15:50:43 GMT
...........true but then why does his name go down in Beatles history? Given all the reasons why Brian should have heard of The Beatles without the need for Raymond Jones to mention them to him?
May be we will never know for sure............but we might as I've just e-mailed Spencer Leigh for some clarification on the entry of Raymond Jones in his book!
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Post by mrmustard on Sept 17, 2011 17:23:22 GMT
You won't believe this but Spencer Leigh has replied to me!!! No joke.
He said he did interview Raymond Jones personally and recorded the interview. I have replied to ask if I can print his response here on the forum. His reply is very revealing.
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Post by mrmustard on Sept 18, 2011 11:50:27 GMT
Find below Spencer Leigh's reply to my question regarding Raymond Jones. He has kindly given me permission to post it on this forum. This should surely put the question beyond doubt now!
Spencer Leigh - All the quotes are from my interviews, not from anywhere else, and I have them all on tape, and that is the end of that matter. Raymond Jones had a printing company in Burscough, now run by his children, and he retired to Spain. I am certain he exists. At diffferent times, Alistair Taylor and Sam Leach claimed to be "Raymond Jones" and as Bob Wooler said to me, "This is getting like I am Spartacus." Yes, Brian probably knew the name but when a good looking boy in a black leather jacket came into NEMS asking for the single, I am sure that prompted his interest! Thanks for listening and reading! Spencer
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alix
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 340
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Post by alix on Sept 18, 2011 13:22:46 GMT
well i never knew Sam Leach had tried the name on as well!
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Post by mrmustard on Sept 18, 2011 17:22:44 GMT
No, neither did I!
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Post by The End on Sept 19, 2011 12:41:10 GMT
Nice work Si! I wonder, if Mark Lewisohn's definitive story ever sees the light of day, will this be one of the myths he claims to be dispelling?
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Post by Bobber on Sept 20, 2011 7:55:59 GMT
Eric Krasker has written about this topic in his excellent researched book. I'll check what his opinion is, but I believe he stated that the whole Raymond Jones story is a complete fake.
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