alexis
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 447
|
Post by alexis on Apr 9, 2008 19:06:23 GMT
Hi All - I see that some of you play live quite a bit (Carnaby's! , and others) - I was wondering if I could get some advice on delays for voice. Our set up is currently two guitars, me on keys (piano, bass, horns, etc.), with a bass player maybe to join us soon. All three of us take turns singing lead and harmony. When I sing, I use earbuds to hear myself. I've got a little personal mixer I use to mix my voice in one channel, and my keys in another channel (when we get a better board, I'll run the other folks voices into the mix as well). The signal flow is my mic >> a pre-amp >> effects unit, which then splits the signal to my personal mixer and the main sound board. My question is ... what kind of delay do people general put on the vocals? I've been told that delay sounds so much better than reverb coming out of the PA. Two people on other forums who I respect and are very experienced mentioned that they used delays of 450 msec for ballads, with the # repeats only two or three. When I tried that last night at practice, however, it was incredibly unsuccessful! I'd be concentrating on my phrasing, then bam, a delay would come back to me, and then bam, another one would soon follow. I'd get very confused about what I was about to sing vs. what I sang "ages" ago that was just coming back to me as delay. One of those experienced guys said that when the full band is playing, that the extra delays aren't really noticeable as they are pretty low volume. What I don't get is: 1) How to get used to hearing those long delays in my earbuds (my effects box, like most budget boxes, doesn't let me have a different feed, with less delay, than the main feed to the PA), and 2) On a song where the main voice is alternately solo, and then in with the whole band, how to pick a delay value (I think it would sound really weird if the solo voice had a 450 msec delay, especially if there were more than 1). To be honest, I'm also a bit skeptical about the idea that a 450 msec delay on my voice would be good, but I'll take these other guys words for it and try it out when we are all playing (last night it was just two of us, acoustic, to work out some harmonies). Thanks for any advice! P.S. For what it's worth, I set the delay at 50-75 msec last night, no repeats ... it sounded a lot better than "naked" - but I'm pretty sure I can do lots better. Thanks
|
|
|
Post by The End on Apr 9, 2008 20:53:13 GMT
From what you have described, it sounds like you have the effect return on too high a setting.
I think a lot has to be said in favour of the old 'trial and error' way of doing things! If you are simply trying to 'thicken' your vocal, the delay should be minimal with with very little feedback/repeat. However, if you are trying for the 'Instant Karma' vocal, the delay should obviously be a bit longer.
Most importantly though, don't let the effect dominate the lead vocal by having the return settings too high.
|
|
|
Post by the carnabys on Apr 10, 2008 9:56:46 GMT
Hi Alexis...
In terms of knowledge of sounds etc, we are a very basic band and know what we like by trial and error as mentioned by The End. I don't like delay on my vocals at all. I use reverb on it slightly and its only minimal. My guages are as follows.
Hi - 10 past on dial Med - quarter too on dial Lo - 25 too on dial
Feedback - 10%, Reverb - 20%
Nothing more than that. Have a listen to our live demo's for examples of that.
We once did Tomorrow Never Knows as a Cover when we did Beatles numbers and all we used to do for that was whack reverb up to 90%.
I prefer reverb to delay. Delay makes it harder to hear yourself in my view. Its more confusing and messy.
|
|
woodbine
What Goes On In Your Heart
Posts: 27
|
Post by woodbine on Apr 10, 2008 12:18:53 GMT
I don't know if there's a single set of delay values that will work for every song.
For a Sun Records slapback-type sound then a short delay time with a single repeat is what you want.
450 ms isn't necessarily too long, probably it's the number of repeats that you want to reduce (or the level of the delay signal vs. the dry signal -- or both) . One of my frequently-used vocal delay settings is at 400ms.
It is true that when the full band is playing it will sound different. Don't spend too much time trying to find the perfect values all by yourself. Spend that experimentation time with the whole band instead, so that you can check things out in the band setting.
Best thing, though, is to experiment. What works for one person/band may not work for another.
My two cents.
|
|
|
Post by the carnabys on Apr 10, 2008 12:41:11 GMT
As Woodbine says, one thing dont work for all. And all songs on there own are different even within the same band.
Another issue you'll find is sound men at gigs and such, will generally give all vocals the same sort of sound anyway. Its in the studio where you can alter your own sound. OR get a sound man to join your group and work alongside you.
But thats easier said than done.
Luke.
|
|
alexis
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 447
|
Post by alexis on Apr 10, 2008 15:55:20 GMT
Thanks Al, Lord Woodbine, and Luke for your advice Luke - I wouldn't call you guys a "very basic band" at all, fantastic sound actually, from what you've posted Re: reverb - As of now I am doing a similar thing to what you said you often do - minimal effect. I too think it's confusing and messy to have a lot of delay. But, I'd like to learn more about that 400msec delay that a lot of people use, so ... Lord Woodbine - You said, as have a bunch of people, that one of your most frequently used vocal delays is around 400 msec. Can I ask you some ?'s about that, mainly about further settings, and what that sounds like? 1) How many repeats, and around what % of the original volume do you have your delays, in general? 2) Does the audience hear a bunch of delays, or somehow, does it get "smoothed" out in their brains? 3) Do you use monitoring for your voice when you sing? If so, how is it you don't get confused by the delays - singing one note, while at the same time hearing the LAST note you sang - I get mega-confused by that! Thanks guys
|
|
|
Post by the carnabys on Apr 10, 2008 15:58:28 GMT
When I said basic, I kind of mean just simple rock n roll pal.
We're good at what we do in my view but we're not pushing any boundaries and nor do we want to at the minute. Just writing good rock n roll numbers.
But like I said, its all trial and error pal.
Any more help I can be, let me know.
|
|
woodbine
What Goes On In Your Heart
Posts: 27
|
Post by woodbine on Apr 10, 2008 18:04:07 GMT
Lord Woodbine - You said, as have a bunch of people, that one of your most frequently used vocal delays is around 400 msec. Can I ask you some ?'s about that, mainly about further settings, and what that sounds like? 1) How many repeats, and around what % of the original volume do you have your delays, in general? 2) Does the audience hear a bunch of delays, or somehow, does it get "smoothed" out in their brains? 3) Do you use monitoring for your voice when you sing? If so, how is it you don't get confused by the delays - singing one note, while at the same time hearing the LAST note you sang - I get mega-confused by that! Hi alexis, Re my comment about "frequently used vocal delay". For vocals I use a Boss SE-50 DSP and it has a bunch of presets. One of the presets (the one I alluded to) chains together a limiter, an enhancer, a noise suppressor, delay, chorus, and reverb. The delay settings for that preset are 400ms delay time, feedback 20, level (volume) 10. Most of the values for the other effects in that chain I've minimized because all together the default values were a little much for my taste. Re (1): My preference is for a short number of repeats (ditto for delay as used with guitar, unless you've got a solo spot and want to get some crazy effects) and a bias toward the dry portion of the signal. Volume-wise, not too much (my preference). The dry portion of the signal should predominate. Re (2): this depends on how you setup your delay. The audience shouldn't find the effect very obvious (again, unless the point is crazy effects). It should enhance the overall sound (of the vocals, and the band) not obscure it. (Also, how "smoothed out" things get in audience brains depends in part on how many beers have been consumed ) Re (3): Yes I use stage monitoring. I don't get confused by the delays because the effect is subtle with our setup (how it should be -- again in my opinion). In most cases, "less is more". Keep experimenting until you find what sounds best to your ears.
|
|
alexis
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 447
|
Post by alexis on Apr 11, 2008 1:20:27 GMT
Hi Lord Woodbine - I'm beginning to see the big pic I think - the delay won't be distracting (to the audience OR the singer) because it is quite low in volume relative to the main vocal - yeah? We were supposed to have a practice tonight but it was cancelled, so I'll have to work on my keyboards instead (my effects box is stored at the practice venue). In the meantime, can you tell me please the context of your 400 msec delay: Feedback = 20. The "feedback" knob on my device (a Behringer cheapo, but hey it's not the limiting factor in our quest for world music domination ) controls how many repeats I hear. What is your feedback control? What is your "full scale" for this control - 100? s Level = 10: Is this the volume of the first delay? What is full scale for this one? Thanks again LW!
|
|
woodbine
What Goes On In Your Heart
Posts: 27
|
Post by woodbine on Apr 11, 2008 11:53:15 GMT
Yep, relative to the dry vocal the delay is low. Fx shouldn't predominate, it's the lip gloss, not the lips themselves, right?
The feedback control is the number of repeats basically, yeah. On my SE-50 it goes up to 100, ditto for the level control (which controls volume of the delayed signal).
Keep on rockin'!
|
|
alexis
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 447
|
Post by alexis on Apr 12, 2008 5:07:03 GMT
OK, thanks Lord Woodbine. My next practice is Tuesday, I'll play around as much as possible then. 20 repeats? I'll give it a go, with the volume low, and see how thick the lip gloss is Thanks for all your advice, and Luke too!
|
|
woodbine
What Goes On In Your Heart
Posts: 27
|
Post by woodbine on Apr 12, 2008 18:41:38 GMT
Well hang on now, a feedback value of 20 -- at least with the device I'm using -- doesn't equal 20 repeats. It equals about two, with the second being barely noticeable. Your mileage may vary with whatever fx device you're using, which isn't going to be calibrated exactly the same as mine.
Let your ears be the judge. Take whatever others say (including me) with a grain of salt. Learn the ins and outs of your own equipment and you'll figure out how to get the sound you want through trial and error.
Good luck!
|
|
alexis
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 447
|
Post by alexis on Apr 13, 2008 1:31:50 GMT
Well hang on now, a feedback value of 20 -- at least with the device I'm using -- doesn't equal 20 repeats. It equals about two, with the second being barely noticeable. Your mileage may vary with whatever fx device you're using, which isn't going to be calibrated exactly the same as mine. Let your ears be the judge. Take whatever others say (including me) with a grain of salt. Learn the ins and outs of your own equipment and you'll figure out how to get the sound you want through trial and error. Good luck! Ah, that's more what I would have guessed, thanks! I can't wait for Tuesday's practice. I've got the delay thing to work on, and also hooking up a little mixer to help me with my stage monitoring. It sounds nerdy, but I like this stuff! Thanks again, I'll give some "feedback" on how it goes
|
|
woodbine
What Goes On In Your Heart
Posts: 27
|
Post by woodbine on Apr 18, 2008 19:04:36 GMT
So alexis, how'd it go Tuesday? Inquiring minds want to know!
|
|
alexis
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 447
|
Post by alexis on Apr 20, 2008 0:36:46 GMT
Hi! I didn't post because I didn't have a full story to report, but thank you for your interest, that means a lot to me, so here goes! I couldn't really give the 400msec delay a fair evaluation, because I was having trouble figuring my mixer out (it is a "budget" Behringer). First and foremost I wanted to have all my vox in my left ear bud, and all my keys in the right. So I used an aux send on my vox the delay fx box, and had it come in to the left aux return (the dry vox itself being panned hard left on its channel strip). Here's where I got kind of lost. Even though the delay was coming in through the left aux return, it seemed like it was coming in my right ear bud , very disorienting to me. When I tried to trouble shoot this, it seemed that wherever I panned the dry vox, it pushed the aux return to the opposite side. That is so bizarre sounding that I think probably it was something I was missing, though it IS a budget Behringer ... So next practice, I'm going to route the delay return into a normal channel rather than the aux return, and pan it hard left like the dry voice (I didn't have time to figure that out during the practice). Then I'll have a chance to truly evaluate how the 400 msec delay will sound to me. The only thing I can say so far is that with the dry vox in my left ear, and the delay in my right, it was too hard for me to sing well. I 'd be singing a note in one chord, at the same time that the delay from the previous chord was getting to my ear - ouch! I have to say though that I really didn't give the 400 msec delay a fair shake - I spent so much time on the routing thing that, although I did make some changes to the feedback and fx volume, I didn't really get to experiment with those settings as much as I wanted to. More to come ... thanks so much for the help and the interest P.S. I'm looking at buying either a Mackie 802 VLZ3 or 1202 VLZ3, not just for this reason, but because it gives me more routing options for control room and main mix than my trusty old Behringer. The Behringer has only 1 aux send and so (since it has 6 inputs) the routing I describe above means that my keys have to go mono to the PA. Not a big deal really, but it would be nice to send them stereo.
|
|
alexis
I'll Be On My Way
Posts: 447
|
Post by alexis on Apr 20, 2008 16:12:24 GMT
...Here's where I got kind of lost. Even though the delay was coming in through the left aux return, it seemed like it was coming in my right ear bud , very disorienting to me. When I tried to trouble shoot this, it seemed that wherever I panned the dry vox, it pushed the aux return to the opposite side. That is so bizarre sounding that I think probably it was something I was missing ... Eureka! I did some reading and figured out what was happening, why the wet voice seemed to be panned to the opposite side, when I had the wet signal coming in through an aux return. I learned there is something called "jack normalling" - when something is plugged into the L/mono input, it is panned to center, not hard left as I assumed. That seems to explain why the wet voice seemed to always wind up on the opposite side of my hard-panned dry voice - it was actually always center, which seemed to be coming out of the opposite earbud of my dry voice. So at the next practice, I'll just have the FX return come in a "normal" channel, and pan it to the opposite side of the dry voice. With the routing issues out of the way, I'll truly have time to evaluate the delays. Quite a detour for me, but I am pretty tickled that I learned this about mixer function More to come later - thanks!
|
|