Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2008 17:30:10 GMT
Yes, that's right - Raymond Jones! Apparently, a guy with that name walked into Brian Epstein's shop in 1961 and asked for the single 'My Bonnie' that The Beatles had recorded with Tony Sheridan in Hamburg earlier in that year.
My questions to the experts are :
1. Is there any evidence to suggest that, indeed, a 'Raymond Jones' existed and did, in fact visit Epstein's shop in 1961?
2. Has there been anyone by the name of Raymond Jones who has actually admitted to being that person?
3. If true, could not the incident in Epstein's shop be a major factor in the birth of the monumental success that The Beatles came to be?
Cheers.
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Post by The End on Feb 8, 2008 18:39:09 GMT
There has been a great deal of debate regarding this - I tend to believe Alistair Taylor's (Brian Epstein's personal assistant) this version of events though. The following interview is taken from the Manchester Evening Standard 4 November 1995: Although it's a bit contradictory in places - did Brian know or not? - I do believe his story that he invented the order for a fake customer.
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Post by briank on Feb 9, 2008 11:26:55 GMT
Actually, I think Mr Taylor's book is one of the more interesting and believable Beatle books out there. There are some unusual bits he asserts that are not found elsewhere, but seem to be quite true. He debunks a lot of myths, which I applaud - the Beatles don't need "fake" credibility - they have enough REAL things they did that were great.
As he says - they couldn't order the Beatles record (an expensive import) unless someone requested it. So a false customer order was created. Note how generically phony the name is; "Raymond Jones"!
We have no proof either - way EXCEPT this odd fact: No "Raymond Jones" was registered or able to be found in all these decades. You would think SOMEONE in Liverpool would have known him, right, if he existed? Or even have HEARD of him - but no one did. I think Taylor's case is good (sadly, he's passed on now too).
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Post by briank on Feb 9, 2008 11:28:33 GMT
BTW - more and more, the evidence points out that the major breaking of the Beatles was SOLELY due to the efforts of Brian Epstein. Some people have criticized his management, but he truly put his world on the line so that we could know the Beatles. As good as they were, it would NEVER have happened without Brian Epstein.
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BlueMeanie
For A Number Of Things
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together
Posts: 606
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Post by BlueMeanie on Feb 9, 2008 12:06:19 GMT
I've never heard the Raymond Jones story before, or the creation of a fake order for My Bonnie. I've always accepted that people who'd seen them at The Cavern were ordering the record from Brian's shop. So why would there be a need to create a fake order?
Brian was the boss, surely he could have ordered a few copies if he'd wanted to, without the need for 'Raymond Jones'?
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Post by The End on Feb 9, 2008 14:58:12 GMT
I've never heard the Raymond Jones story before, or the creation of a fake order for My Bonnie. I've always accepted that people who'd seen them at The Cavern were ordering the record from Brian's shop. So why would there be a need to create a fake order? Brian was the boss, surely he could have ordered a few copies if he'd wanted to, without the need for 'Raymond Jones'? The story (or myth!) goes, as put forward in Epstein's "A Cellar Full of Noise", that someone called Raymond Jones ordered My Bonnie in his shop, which prompted Epstein's interest in the group and subsequent visit to the Cavern. The same story was later re-told in Hunter Davies' official biography.
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Post by briank on Feb 13, 2008 20:27:56 GMT
Yes, the order predates his introduction to them.
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Post by The End on Mar 5, 2008 21:44:57 GMT
I asked Bill Harry, former editor of Merseybeat, about this - here is his reply:
Raymond Jones actuially existed. He was one of several people who went into Nems to ask about the Beatles record which had dominated the entire front page of issue No. 2 of Mersey Beat in July 1961. Paul McCartney had brought me a copy of the single from Germany and he also gave a copy to Bob Wooler, who played it locally. Brian Epstein, my record reviewer in Mersey Beat from issue No. 3 used to drop into the Mersey Beat office with his adverts, which went on the same pages as Beatles features, he'd come into the office with a present for Virginia after a visit to Amsterdam and took me to lunch at the Basnett Bar in Basnett Street on two occasions to discuss what was happening on the local scene. Every time I visited Nems to drop in the latest issue, he'd invite me into his office to discuss it.
Therefore, i was suprised when, in his autobiography, he made out that he'd only heard of the Beatles when a lad came into his shop to order the single later that year. I'd been discussing them with him for months and he was aware of them, not only from Mersey Beat but for the fact that they dropped into Nems regularly in the afternoons after their lunchtime sessions at the Cavern and he asked the girls on his staff about them. This can also be confirmed by Pete Best.
Bob Barroch is another person who asked for the record at Nems. He said he asked for it before Jones because Paul McCartney told him about it at the Cavern.
Alistair Taylor did claim that he was Raymond Jones, but this is not so. Raymond Jones now lives in Spain. But his only relevance to the Beatles story would be if Brian had never heard of the group before his enquiry. This is not so. I was the first person ever to discuss the local scene with Brian and that was in July 1961 - and it can all be proven in black and white in the pages of Mersey Beat.
Why Brian decided to put the story in his book is probably because it sounds a lot better that saying he discovered them via Mersey Beat. I was also the one who arranged his visit to the Cavern. He phoned me up and asked if I could smooth the way. He didn't want to have to stand in a queue with youngsters and pay at the door. So I phoned Ray McFall and arranged it for Brian.
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Post by Bobber on Mar 7, 2008 9:01:45 GMT
In this interview, Brian admits that he had heard of the group before someone asked about their record in his store.
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Post by The End on Mar 7, 2008 14:48:23 GMT
Very interesting - not seen that before
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